The Bad Touch Finesse (For 2's) about hanabi.github.io

[Zamiell]

Also:

The Bad Touch Bluff (For 2's)

• In the same way as the Bad Touch Finesse, it is also possible to Bad Touch Bluff in order to get unrelated cards played from Finesse Position.
• For example, in a 3-player game:
  • Blue 2 and green 2 are played on the stacks.
  • Alice clues number 2 to Cathy, touching a red 2 on slot 3 and a red 2 on slot 5 (her chop).
  • Bob knows that normally, this would be a 2 Save on the red 2. However, Alice is violating Good Touch Principle, so she must be trying to communicate something extra.
  • Bob blind-plays his Finesse Position card and it is blue 3.
  • Cathy knows that since a clue that looks like a 2 Save got Bob to blind-play something, then a duplication occurred and both of the twos must be the same copy. Cathy discards the left-most copy and saves the other one for later.

[aliblong]

What's the proposal exactly? That a 2s clue to chop that finesses implies dupe 2s? I'm not even sure that's generally true given other context that can exist (maybe the 2 clue was prioritized ahead of a clearly better clue in the hand of the player holding the 2s?).

If the conclusion is that a player can sometimes induce that the 2s are duped, that's just a consequence of existing conventions.

[Zamiell]

its not really a new proposal, more of documentation of an existing move

[Zamiell]

the only time when this style of a clue not does indicate dupe 2's is when it is done super early (and usually in a hard-variant). that move is currently undocumented, probably can stay that way tbh

[aliblong]

If it's worth documenting this, it should probably come with all the qualifiers like: the clue wasn't OPC, it wasn't unduly urgent, it clearly can't be a suboptimal save.

[Zamiell]

• The Bad Touch Finesse is contextual and does not always apply. For example, if the clue giver was an Occupied, then it is an Occupied Play Clue and the 2's are not necessarily duplicated.

it wasn't unduly urgent

is this in reference to the "super-early"-style 2's clue?

[aliblong]

That's one way of putting it. Considering the urgent 2s finesse happens more often than the dupe 2s finesse IME, it seems weird to want to document the latter but not the former.

There are still more cases to consider, however. What if the hand is two 5s and two 2s? Cluing the chop 2 first is a suboptimal way to save it, so it should indicate a finesse, despite the other 2 being good.

[Zamiell]

it seems weird to want to document the latter but not the former.

mostly it was due to wanting to document all of the bad touch finesses for completion purposes

There are still more cases to consider, however. What if the hand is two 5s and two 2s? Cluing the chop 2 first is a suboptimal way to save it, so it should indicate a finesse, despite the other 2 being good.

ive never seen that move myself, it might not be worth documenting that

[Zamiell]

• If the clue giver gave a 2 Save early and had other Play Clues to give instead, the clue could be so bad that it would trigger a Finesse and the other 2's are not necessarily duplicated.

[hanabirnoob]

Could be an useful convention. It makes a card play faster and with known duplicates it's easier to do priority play or trash order chop move (when two cards are clued at a time)

[Zamiell]

/accept

[conventions-bot]

• Some time has passed since this issue was opened and the group appears to have reached a consensus.
• ✔️ This change will be integrated into the official reference document.
• This issue will now be closed; feel free to re-open it if you wish to continue the discussion.

(For more information on how consensus is determined, please read the Convention Changes document.)