Page Management System about mybb2

[Sama34]

I thought the idea was to keep it a forum software and leave this kind of stuff to third parties?

I'm not against this implementation since I myself manage a community where this kind of tools is useful, but if we do add it by default then users would get to question why this makes it in and other stuff doesn't.

BTW, why not building this as a portal feature? With its widgets and all that stuff.

[euantorano]

That is the idea, but IMO leaving pages out makes very little sense. It's such a widely used feature and is very simple, so it should be core I believe.

On 21 Mar 2015, at 04:12, Omar Gonzalez [email protected] wrote:

I thought the idea was to keep it a forum software and leave this kind of stuff to third parties?

I'm not against this implementation since I myself manage a community where this kind of tools is useful, but if we do add it by default then users would get to question why this makes it in and other stuff doesn't.

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[Sama34]

Indeed it should. This is where official plugins comes to mind. phpBB does it this way I believe.

BTW, what about the help documents?

[euantorano]

Help documents (if still needed) would be a page created at install that admins can remove if they want :)

On 21 Mar 2015, at 06:19, Omar Gonzalez [email protected] wrote:

Indeed it should. This is where official plugins comes to mind. phpBB does it this way I believe.

BTW, what about the help documents?

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[wpillar]

I think this should be an official plugin, maybe bundled with the core by default but I think it should be a plugin because it's not core to a forum but I agree that it can be useful. Got to remember that we're not building a CMS here.

If we build a page manager, suddenly we get asked to build something akin to blogging... shouldn't there be a line somewhere?

[euantorano]

So we'd build the help pages as a separate system? IMO it's such a simple feature found elsewhere that it should be core. We don't tend to do official plugins as they become hard to support.

On 21 Mar 2015, at 11:24, Will Pillar [email protected] wrote:

I think this should be an official plugin, maybe bundled with the core by default but I think it should be a plugin because it's not core to a forum but I agree that it can be useful. Got to remember that we're not building a CMS here.

If we build a page manager, suddenly we get asked to build something akin to blogging... shouldn't there be a line somewhere?

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[wpillar]

Why do official plugins become hard to support?

[euantorano]

That's what we've always said in the past. A lot of the time debs barely have enough time to concentrate on the core, never mind other packages.

On 21 Mar 2015, at 12:24, Will Pillar [email protected] wrote:

Why do official plugins become hard to support?

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[Destroy666x]

Got to remember that we're not building a CMS here.

Uh..

because it's not core to a forum

Multiple forum scripts have that option in their core though. Why do they?

If we build a page manager, suddenly we get asked to build something akin to blogging

We receive such requests regardless of having in-built page manager or other useful features in 1.6/1.8.. And then we can kindly refuse or ignore them, I don't know what's the problem with that.

Also, those requests only prove the point that many admins expect forums to have "CMS" functionalities nowadays - for easier customization and management. And we're expected to attract these admins somehow, right?

but if we do add it by default then users would get to question why this makes it in and other stuff doesn't

And, once again, they can be kindly told that we've chosen to add this but not other things. Otherwise we shouldn't implement anything with that way of thinking. Just some examples:
NoCAPTCHA? It's quite new, some people may later request sweetCaptcha, so let's not add that.
Markdown? It's not common on forums at all, so maybe people will request Textile too?
Likes? Admins will surely want stuff that extends them - dislikes, bans for certain amount of dislikes, awards for certain amount of likes, top likes widget, least dislikes widget etc. Our suggestions forum will be filled, we can't let that happen (but wait, don't we provide software fthat's supposed to open lots of discussions in the first place?!).

And so on. If this won't get in, they'll just have 1 more thing to constantly ask for, in my opinion...

[Sama34]

So we'd build the help pages as a separate system?

Add an importer for after activating.

TBH the "no official plugins" rule seems rather old as from 2.0...

Multiple forum scripts

phpBB doesn't. I.P Board, vBulletin aren't solely forum softwares anymore.

I agree we need to define a line somewhere.

[euantorano]

No, phpBB doesn't. We shouldn't limit ourselves just to features they have though. If a feature is useful, there's no reason not to add it IMO.

On 21 Mar 2015, at 20:57, Omar Gonzalez [email protected] wrote:

So we'd build the help pages as a separate system?

Add an importer for after activating.

TBH the "no official plugins" rule seems rather old as from 2.0...

Multiple forum scripts

phpBB doesn't. I.P Board, vBulletin aren't solely forum softwares anymore.

I agree we need a line somewhere.

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[wpillar]

I don't see a significant difference between maintaining a page management system that's in the core vs maintaining a page management system that's an official plugin. If we get the plugin system right, there should be almost no extra cost.

I disagree that if a feature is useful that we should add it, to deliberately pick an extreme example, I'm sure a lot of forum admins would find a payment system really useful for shops or charging for access, but I wouldn't say that we should add it to the core. I would say it should be an official plugin.

IMHO keep the core to things that are directly beneficial to a forum operating as a forum, where discussions can thrive. Make the core extensible such that the community and also we can provide plugins that add functionality that some would find useful if they perhaps need something that is a bit more than a forum.

[euantorano]

We should probably ask the community once the alpha goes public. I think it's extremely useful in the core personally rather than being an official add on.

On 21 Mar 2015, at 21:11, Will Pillar [email protected] wrote:

I don't see a significant different between maintaining a page management system that's in the core vs maintaining a page management system that's an official plugin. If we the plugin system right, there should be almost no extra cost.

I disagree that if a feature is useful that we should add it, to deliberately pick an extreme example, I'm sure a lot of forum admins would find a payment system really useful for shops or charging for access, but I wouldn't say that we should add it to the core. I would say it should be an official plugin.

IMHO keep the core to things that are directly beneficial to a forum operating as a forum, where discussions can thrive. Make the core extensible such that the community and also we can provide plugins that add functionality that some would find useful if they perhaps need something that is a bit more than a forum.

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[euantorano]

Also note that official plugins will require official level support. The current support team struggles as is. We'll have to do significant recruitment if we're going to maintain official plugins. We should therefore have a topic in the Lair about this subject to make sure everybody agrees (not everybody sues GitHub or has access to these repositories).

[Destroy666x]

I.P Board, vBulletin aren't solely forum softwares anymore

How would you describe them then? They still call themselves forum software even on their main pages because forums are their main product regardless of further additions. And why do you think they chose the "more-like-CMS" direction? Once again, many admins expect forums to have "CMS" functionalities and they didn't reject their requests just to stay pure and basic forum software for no apparent reason.

I don't see a significant difference between maintaining a page management system that's in the core vs maintaining a page management system that's an official plugin.

Exactly - no significiant difference, we will still need to maintain and support it. So why does it need to be a plugin? Additional overhead? If no page will be added by admin, there won't be nearly any (of course only with a good implementation). Bigger package? Tell that to PSR-2 and its 4 spaces, which aren't useful for any admin, unlike pages. Not needed on most MyBB forums? Wouldn't say so - 29493 downloads (top 3 I think) for 1.6 say "no" too: http://mods.mybb.com/mods/new-pages/2 Any other reason?

[wpillar]

@euantorano completely agree that this should be discussed and agreed upon in a wider discussion 👍

[euantorano]

Also note that the milestone for this issue is Alpha 2, which was set for this exact reason ;) Issues tagged for Alpha 1 should be far more pressing and concentrated more upon at this point in time 😄

[Sama34]

We should probably ask the community

We already know the answer. It is not about that, it is about sticking to a decision we already made from years ago.

The current support team struggles as is.

Things are meant to change with 2.0 anyways. The current team struggles at pretty much everything.

We'll have to do significant recruitment

Probably true but you put as if an official modification will require far much maintenance than if it was an in-core feature.

How would you describe them then?

CMS's.

And why do you think they chose the "more-like-CMS" direction?

I don't think you understand the point \we are trying to make. We have put a line there for years to keep MyBB a forum software. Implementing this will make it even more bluer than it is.

If the majority agrees on just passing this out then go ahead, as long as we understand what this implies.

That itself will be a change on vision, totally expected in 2.0

[JN-Jones]

So you want to keep everything as it is? Why do we rewrite mybb then? We want to have a modern and easy to use forum software which allows the majority of Admins to do as most as possible from the core and allow the rest to easily modify and extend it. And nowadays most admins want/need to add custom pages. So if we have a plugin which 99% of our users will use we should try to implement it even if it's not a real forum feature. Eg IMHO likes don't belong to a forum but we decided to implement them as most admins want them.

Official plugin or core option doesn't really matter here (thought I'd prefer the later) but we should definitely provide a basic page manager maintained by us.

[Destroy666x]

I don't think you understand the point \we are trying to make. We have put a line there for years to keep MyBB a forum software.

No, I don't think you understand the point I'm trying to make. So I'm forced to say it bluntly - sticking to the "just a plain forum, nothing more" decision made several years ago (!) just for the sake of the fact that this decision was made at that time is completely unreasonable.

We're talking about webdevelopment here, where one year changes standards and people's needs drastically. Few years? Even more drastically. Others didn't resist to think outside the box and keep up with the times, so why should we stop at a limitation which was set several years ago? It may have been logical then, but now it doesn't seem to. Jumping to the "next level" may only bring positives, there is nothing to lose by including this feature. Of course considering it will be secure and optimised, but that can be as well said about everything else. And making it official plugin won't change anything in that case.

[Sama34]

Now we want a forum software.

Want to change that? Great, go ahead, I'm in for it.

My point was totally confusing. I apologize for that.

So you want to keep everything as it is?

[JoshHarmon]

People want this feature, and I think it's very fair to have it. It gives them an easy way to document for their users the features they've added and things users need to know. Threads Topics aren't perfect for everything - and permanent documentation is one of those cases where a page is just better, both aesthetically and logically.

What if we and plugin developers could expect this in core? Plugin authors could automatically add pages as documentation, which would ease the admins' job of educating users about everything on their own. They'd probably just have to rename the page to whatever they brand the system as.

What if we see something like a NewPoints plugin in the 2.0 community (likely)? It could automatically add a page to describe how things work and what the points can do. Or if sub-plugins were added to it, as there are today, then those can add more pages to help. Bank? Document it.

I don't think we should add blogging, for example, as core, but a basic system that outputs HTML via the template system would make lots of sense, in my opinion.

[euantorano]

I'm going to open this up to the community today and get their feedback.

[euantorano]

This is now an open community discussion, any discussion regarding whether this should or should not be implemented should occur in public, here: http://community.mybb.com/thread-175669.html

This issue is left open so that should the system be implemented, we can further discuss planned features and progress (and to be used to track PRs).