Format for 3D data (because npz is not so good) about imageio

[jni]

Haha I use TIFFs for such data all the time. They have some compression support, but I don't know anything about its performance in comparison to other options. TIFF also has vast metadata capabilities, although see my upcoming comment in #263 for caveats.

[ghisvail]

Do you have a link for these claims ? (I was personally not aware of it)

Is that something that cannot be fixed upstream, instead of re-inventing a new format for data serialization ?

[almarklein]

I tried NPZ in pypy and it simply was not implemented. In Vispy we've had some trouble with data stored in npz files. It seemed that with a certain combination of Python2 and Numpy the file could not be read in Python3.

The title could also be: implement plugins for other (existing) 3D data formats.

[ghisvail]

Do you have specific formats in mind ?

[almarklein]

In particular MHD (#29) and hdf5. However, the first needs 2 files to store data (bah) and I suspect hdf5 wont work without relying on another library ...

[ghisvail]

Actually, dual-file data storage is still pretty common. Most of the proprietary formats I deal with in my research are designed that way (one file for the descriptor, one for the raw data). So I'd be interested to see how you are planning to wrap that out.

For HDF5, which I am also familiar with, pytables and h5py are already decent solutions around libhdf5. I don't know whether there is a niche for a pure-Python implementation of it though.

[rossant]

For HDF5, just stick with h5py...

[rossant]

About npz: it looks like there are no problems when files are created in Python 3 (see this issue). Is it conceivable to just throw a big warning when users save npz files in Python 2? Python 3 users will probably never have a problem. It might just be a matter of mentioning this potential problem in the documentation.

[almarklein]

As for hdf5, imageio could provide a thin wrapper to easy the storing and retrieving of image/volume data. Not sure if this is at all useful; it might already be simple enough with pytables/h5py.

Still, I'd like to have something that is pure Python (i.e. works everywhere) and does not rely on another lib...

[rossant]

I agree that a pure Python HDF5 lib might be useful generally speaking, but it might be a lot of work. In my experience the HDF5 C API is horrible to work on, even just getting the data can be quite complicated...

Also, anyone willing to work with HDF5 files in Python will always have h5py or pytables installed. (they are installed by default in anaconda for example)

[almarklein]

I agree, but I was not talking of hdf5 per see.

[rossant]

@almarklein then I think you have too options:

• npz/npy
• flat binary + metadata (either in a header, or in a second file)

[almarklein]

npz is not widely available (it depends on numpy and is not available on pypy). I think I can do better than a flat binary with meta data :) Would be best if there was already a format that we could use. If not, I might just implement something simple.

[rossant]

Oh so you really mean pure Python (no NumPy etc)? Just out of curiosity, why do you need PyPy support?

How can you do best and simpler than flat+header in pure Python?

[almarklein]

I just hate it that we cannot do volumes in pypy :)

[almarklein]

Reopening. I'm thinking of something pure Python (not relying on simpleITK), or more generic (preferably both).

[ghisvail]

Have you looked into the formats that OpenImageIO supports for inspiration?

[almarklein]

I did now. But their plugins that support volumetric images are either based on hdf5 or aimed very much on animation.

[dimatura]

There's the nrrd format, which is quite simple (basically flat binary, optionally compressed): http://teem.sourceforge.net/nrrd/
I've used the pure python (with numpy) implementation here: https://github.com/mhe/pynrrd/blob/master/nrrd.py

[almarklein]

Thanks @dimatura that sounds interesting, especially since its pure Python

[jni]

@almarklein why has TIFF not been discussed here? iirc TiffFile has a pure python implementation...?

[almarklein]

Would TIFF be suited for storing a 512x512x512 volume? I've never seen people do that with GIF, perhaps because the compression is not that good?

In some cases it would also be necessary to store meta data like spacing between voxels, the origin, or a transformation matrix.

[almarklein]

Fair enough :) The Tiff format recently became 3D capable by supporting volread(). My impression was that this was mostly to read all channels at once, but it can indeed also be used to store actual volumetric data.

[almarklein]

Maybe this is why Tiff, although 3D capable, is a bit hard to sell as the format for 3D data: #263 (comment) :)

[jni]

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