Handling broadcasts about flux.jl

[staticfloat]

This is an unusually annoying depwarn, because it seems to be triggered upon every invocation of a Flux call. :)

[MikeInnes]

Yup. I've just been using --depwarn=no (as per usual) but should probably sort this out ASAP.

[stevengj]

You should just stop overloading .+ etcetera in 0.6.

[MikeInnes]

That's not a reasonable requirement in any case where we can't broadcast arbitrary Julia functions. As it turns out there are quite a lot of cases like that, including TensorFlow, MXNet, and many of the GPU libraries. This is a real use case and it's unfortunate that the discussions in Base didn't take it into account whatsoever.

[stevengj]

Why can't you broadcast arbitrary Julia functions?

[MikeInnes]

Many libraries that provide an array abstraction do so in a numpy-like fashion – you get a set of "vectorised" operations like +, * etc. but anything that accesses individual elements is either breaking the abstraction barrier or unusably slow.

[stevengj]

If you only support a small set of operators on your data, there are plenty of binary operators to choose from that you can define. You don't have to use .+. Dot operators now carry with them an expectation of fusion and support for in-place operations like x .+= foo.(x.^2) .- 3 without temporary arrays.

In the longer term, the whole Matlab/numpy-like style, where only certain vectorized operations are fast (at the cost of lots of temporary arrays), kind of defeats the point of Julia.

[stevengj]

I also don't see how that applies to Flux and DataFlow, which are pure-Julia packages as far as I can tell.

[MikeInnes]

In the long term, yes, I'd love to have this stuff all implemented in Julia and compile GPU code on the fly etc. But that isn't going to happen immediately, so interop with existing libraries is the only reasonable option right now.

Can you elaborate on how, say, broadcasting +, sin etc should be written over GPU arrays, if not with .+ and sin.? (Bearing in mind we want to be generic over array types.)

I expect it would be possible to implement broadcasting syntax in a trait-like way in which the container can choose whether to fuse, which would solve the problem for us.

[oxinabox]

I also don't see how that applies to Flux and DataFlow, which are pure-Julia packages as far as I can tell.

Flux has a lazy dependency on TensorFlow, and/or MXNet

[stevengj]

TensorFlow allows you to define efficient custom operations in C++, and it's also possible in MXNet; why couldn't you do that from Julia?

Anyway, basically .+ means fusing broadcast now in Julia, so if you want something that is not a broadcast call you should use a different symbol (e.g. ⊕ or ⨦) or function name. (I'd like to update Julia that you can use e.g. +̃ or +′ as operators.)

[MikeInnes]

It's technically possible, it's just a big project, given that we need robust GPU compilation among other things. The right solution to this is not "wait until 2025".

The thing is, I do want broadcast. The semantics are all the same, and changing the user API (especially for something so common) for an implementation detail is not reasonable.

Not being able to write generic code that works over a range of implementation strategies kind of defeats the point of Julia.

[stevengj]

Not having fusion for user-defined container types and operations in Julia would be a much bigger sacrifice than saying that you need to rename if you explicitly want non-fusing operations.

[MikeInnes]

I'm not arguing we should trade one for the other, but I'm repeating myself now.

I expect it would be possible to implement broadcasting syntax in a trait-like way in which the container can choose whether to fuse, which would solve the problem for us.

[stevengj]

I expect it would be possible to implement broadcasting syntax in a trait-like way in which the container can choose whether to fuse, which would solve the problem for us.

Nope, because fusion happens at a syntactic level (at lowering time), before types are known.

Changing fusion to a compile-time optimization that depends on inference is a complete redesign (and would also result in semantics that depend on inference). It's something that's been tried many times in many languages and has always failed to achieve genericity for user-defined types and functions. That is a "wait until 2050" solution.

[MikeInnes]

if should_fuse(x, y)
  broadcast((x, y) -> x + y, x, y)
else
  broadcast(+, x, y)
end

This is still a syntactical transformation that doesn't depend on inference. should_fuse can default to true and be compiled away in the base case (just like promotion rules), leaving you identical code to the current output. But overriding it for GPUArray etc would solve our problem.

[stevengj]

I see, yes, that would be possible.